I'm Not a Jukebox
Death Poem by Shisui, 1769
"During his last moments, Shisui's followers requested that he write a death poem. He grasped his brush, painted a circle, cast the brush aside, and died."
PAUL BaRMAN (A): I read that your poems are skeletons for your novels.
PAUL BeATTY (E): A woman came up and said, "You use your poems in your fiction." I was like, "Yeah, you're the first person to ever bust me on that." I do it all the time. Not so much as in White Boy Shuffle. But even in Tuff and the stuff I’m working on now. And actually, I just wrote this tv pilot for HBO. It’s a good pilot but it’s not a television show. But that’s another thing. In there, I use a whole section from a poem. An early early poem, I stole a little dialogue thing and it worked out perfect. I use them kind of like lily pads, sometimes to leapfrog or bridge some gap in my head. Sometimes I say, "Ah, I said that before and I can’t say it any better. Let me just use a line or an image." It’s not very heavy but it’s there.
And I've been struggling with this novel. I don’t know if any of this is true of course. I met this guy named Darius in Berlin. He was like, "Ah, the thing that you always have to remember is that you’re a poet." And it made sense to me in some kind of way. It helped me. It’s not something I think about as I’m writing. It’s true. I don’t know if that answers the question.
A: It does answer the question although it doesn’t sound like a skeleton. I know you're a huge haiku fan. A skeleton would be the haiku which is so profound and expansive that it can branch into an entire novel.
E: The other thing I fight not to do is to not make poetry the centerpiece of the novel. Not necessarily the centerpiece but the lynchpin. So it comes up just in terms of the actual crafting. But it also comes up in thematic ways. It would be something I’m always dealing with in a number of ways. I always tend to ridicule myself in the form of ridiculing a poem or a poet.
A: Can I read the poem that was the basis for Tuff?
E: It’s not like there’s a poem that’s the basis for Tuff. It’s not like that. There’s sometimes little fireworks. Sometimes you don’t see em because the building is blocking the way but I know that they’re there. And sometimes they're very evident like when this woman says, "Yeah, you know that little part was in a poem you had," or something like that. It’s not like they're the genesis of anything. They're just there. They're dust mites. Sometimes more important than dust mites.
A: How was Tuff influenced by Yoshikawa's book Musashi, a story about a masterless samurai?
E: I probably should have went further with it. I regret that sometimes. That was one of those books I was reading in Berlin. I started writing Tuff in Berlin. I didn’t know it at the time but it was right before Ghost Dog came out and I was listening to Rza. I was seeing Tuffy as a solitary black samurai figure. Not literally but some similarities. You know, loner, trying to prove himself in weird ways. And Musashi was sort of this nationalist text covered up in all this Japanese bushido. It was written in '29.
A: Are you saying Tuff is pro-America?
E: No, not at all. I’m talking about Musashi. Is Tuff pro-America? It wasn’t meant to be, but maybe it is. Anyway, there were things in that book like circles and little image stuff that struck me that I used in Tuff. There are things that help me move along in that book. Nothing literal but I kind of wish that I had followed it more.
A: How could you have done that?
E: It would have been really long. I would have had to change the relationship between him and Smush a bit. Yeah, I coulda done it but it would have been a different book. Probably it would have been a lot edgier. Not edgier, but more confrontational than I wanted it.
A: That sumo scene is so comedic.
E: That’s one of my favorite chapters.from Tuff, 2000:
With a sudden burst of speed and strength, Kotozuma freed himself and slapped Winston across his jowls so hard his vision doubled. If Kotozuma had done anything else-- twisted Winston's arm behind his neck and thrown him to the ground with a perfectly executed kubi-nage, or grabbed his wrist and kicked his inner ankle-- Winston would have succumbed. But in the streets to be slapped in front of anyone who even remotely knows you is the ultimate insult. Mothers slap children, wives slap husbands, pimps slap hos, but nobody slaps Winston, and before Kotozuma could release a follow-up smack, Winston blasted him with a "What, motherfucker?" two-handed push to the chest that sent the rikishi reeling backward. Just as Kotozuma was about to regain his balance, Winston blasted him out of the ring with a well-placed shoulder tackle and belly bump. Kotozuma landed in a clump at his Oyakata's feet.
A: The style of Tuff is extremely different from the style of White Boy Shuffle. Would you ever go back to that?
E: Probably not, I don’t think so.
A: Is the new novel as different from Tuff as Tuff was from White Boy Shuffle?
E: Yeah, the new one’s different. The new one’s good actually. It was a tough sell but I think I finally figured it out. First good news I’ve had in a while, my editor was blown away. So that’s very good. I don’t really want to talk about the book though. All I can say is that I’m on to something.
A: How did you find yourself in Berlin?
E: I got a grant. It was a hard hard year. I’m
glad I did it I think. It was the place where your grey hairs first start
to come in. I was in a weird place when I went and stayed in that weird
place the whole time. I think it happens to a lot of people when they
go abroad. You’ve got to deal. And I’m not very social.
The first time I went there I had been literally on the ground for an
hour and a half. It’s like '93, we were staying in the East. The
city has changed since then. I go to get something to eat at one of these
outdoor snack bars. So I’m getting these sausages on a plate and
I hear, "Aaaaaaaaah." It’s in the middle of a park with
a street behind it. I turn around, it’s this clown car full of skinheads,
jam packed yelling. I turn around and I did something I would never do,
but I was absolutely exhausted and I just went, "WHAT?" and
shrugged. They went silent and then the head skinhead went, "Hahaha!"
He laughs and then they drive off. I was like, "Man, that was probably
pretty stupid to confront them." This was back in the days when they
were burning down apartments and throwing people off train trestles. I
came back and told everyone what happened.
The weird thing is this little grenade that goes off there, it doesn’t have to be race, it could be anything—it’s so weird how people react. Defensiveness and some of it’s unique to Germany and some of it’s just what I was learning at the time about what people do. That sense of not knowing what’s going on. Not knowing what’s exaggeration, what’s denial. About four friends of mine came to Berlin in October. It was such a relief for me 'cause I thought I was going crazy. Just to be able to watch them reacting to all the stimuli. I was like, "It’s not just me," so it helped. With deep interactions I can be really slow. I had gone over with a bunch of poets. And I hated poetry at the time and I hated poets at the time, including myself. A lot of people were trying to prove points. It was the first time I’d actually ever heard the phrase ‘spoken word.’ All these things stayed with me as ugly. But I got some confidence about myself while I was there.
A: Let me read you something from the Dhammapada. I encountered the word 'hate' in a few of your interviews.
E: What did I hate?
A: Most Beat literature, a John Irving novel, and any phrase that ends or starts with 'generation.' "He insulted me, he hurt me, he defeated me, he robbed me. Those who think such thoughts will not be free from hate."
E: So the idea is to be free from hate.
A: "He insulted me, he hurt me, he defeated me, he robbed me. Those who think not such thoughts will be free from hate." Do you think it's a worthwhile goal to be free from hate?
E: It's not something I'm trying do. I'm not trying to be hateful but I'm not trying to see the silver lining in everything either.
A: Do you feel insulted, hurt, defeated or robbed?
E: All the time. I'm sensitive.
A: You said that the structure of Slumberland got too cute and you had to rein it in.
E: I said that? How do you know the title?
A: I got the title from Bloomsbury when I asked what you were working on.
E: And they said that? Too cute. Yeah it did. Cute's not the right word. It got cute trying to solve these issues and so I stuck with this stupid format which wasn't working.
A: I think White Boy Shuffle is totally unique and will be remembered.
E: We'll see, I guess. It's still in print. That's a start.
A: When Ishmael Reed said that the book will be used by conservatives, I was encouraged by the notion that politicians would care about literature.
E: Ah, I'm trying to think of a case where it has.
A: From my understanding, art used to be more important. A painting could cause a controversy and you didn't have to cut up a cow.
E: There's a good scene in this kinda okay movie, Glory. You know this movie Glory with Matthew Broderick?
A: Where the guy holds the flag at the end and gets shot?
E: I guess that's the pro-American unhappy ending. There's a scene and the character ends up being called Snowflake. And he's talkin' to Matthew Broderick and they're talking about a book. And it's just so funny 'cause I remember watching it and being like, "Man, it sounds like they're talking about a television show." It's so infrequent that I hear people talking about literature just in that little quick simple way.
A: Which way is that?
E: Without trying to prove a point. Just talking about it.
A: Do you think any conservatives are talking about your work?
E: I doubt it. Y'know, you put it out there and people do what they do with it. They ignore it, they use it, they manipulate it, they appropriate it. That's what it's there for.
A: Are there any poems from Watermelanin?
E: What do you mean?
A: It's a fake poetry book in White Boy Shuffle. I was hoping that you could make up one.
E: I'm not a jukebox.
A: Can I make up a poem for Watermelanin?
E: It's your life man.
A: "Paul Beatty is as bald as a baby. It's all gravy. Y'all crazy." What are the titles to some of your favorite haikus?
E: Most haikus don't have titles. I can tell you who some of my favorite haiku poets are. Shiki and Issa are my favorites. I like Basho. There's those death poems in White Boy Shuffle. I got that idea from reading a collection of death poems. It's one of my favorite books of all times [Japanese Death Poems edited by Yoel Hoffmann]. Some of the poems are by haiku poets famous, not so famous. To write those poems you had to be of some class standing. I don't think there are any poems by merchants or anything. I think most of them are samurai class or maybe religious people. It's just such a beautiful book.
A: I've got to check that out. Maybe I can include some of those poems in the interview.
E: You might find poems I ripped off. Death Poem by Kyo'on, 1749
A last fart:
Are these the leaves
of my dream, vainly falling?
translation by Yoel Hoffmann
Death Poem in White Boy Shuffle, 1996
This drunken belch
leaves the last bitter
taste of life in my mouth
A: Can you tell me a little about Lonnie Johnson?
E: I've got Lonnie Johnson on some Columbia blues compilation. He had these beautiful images of women cutting men with razor blades. And he's got this really haunting voice. Who does he remind me of? He was one of the first blues persons that made me see how circular blues and rap are. People must be talkin' about it by now. I just had this weird blues-rap thing, all these Homerian poems being very similar. Very macho, your hands always in the fate of the gods. Hyperbole. I've never really sat down and thought about it.
A: What about James Taylor?
E: I love James Taylor. Where do you get all this stuff from?
A: I'm a good researcher.
E: Jesus Christ, it's like you've been in my apartment! At some point I stopped buying James Taylor. I can't remember what the last album was. Probably around '86 or '87.
A: Where should I start with James Taylor?
E: You shouldn't start. It's like heroin.
A: My main connection to James Taylor is Carole King, who I love. I just bought Really Rosie for my son. Carole King put Maurice Sendak's writing to music in '75. It's for kids but it has this underlying sadness. I don't know if connecting with any deep emotion is automatically sad.
E: Things touch you, you don't ever know. I remember, I can't believe I'm gonna tell you this, but there was only one movie that made me cry, Bad News Bears. I just bawl. Now that I've said it, I'll probably never cry at it again. One of the things about childhood.
A: You know what killed me more than any other movie? Red Beard.
E: The Kurosawa movie.
A: When the nurses start yelling down the well.
E: Yeah, throwing their voices, I remember that.
A: I've never cried like that before.
E: Not my favorite Kurosawa by a long shot but there's stuff there. Things getchoo some time. Things getchoo. Which is nice.
A: Your book Tuff made me change my mind about talking in the movies. Before I read Tuff, I was like, "You should know: complete silence." After Tuff I thought, "You know what? It is a community experience."
E: I have a couple friends who I like going to the movies with because they like talking in the movies. I'm not a big talker in movies but sometimes I need a little help.
A: "Captain Crunch the Movie," mentioned at the end of Tuff--
E: That was my friend Charlie's idea. My friend Charlie always has these brilliant ideas. He always says, "C'mon Paul, you're the writer, you can make this happen!" And I always dutifully try to say, "Hey, this friend Charlie, had this great idea," and I pitched it to the guy who I thought was my agent, but it turned out he was my manager.
A: I was wondering how you were so fearless mocking people. Now I have a different take on it, which is that you don't consider yourself part of the pop culture world, so it's no big deal for you to throw out bombs.
E: It's probably true actually. I think the real thing is more that I'm a teaser and a mocker. I don't think anybody's really paying attention anyway.
Death Poem by Chogo, 1806
Hito koishi
hito mutsukashishi
aki no kure
I long for people--
then again I loathe them:
end of autumn.translation by Yoel Hoffmann
Birth Poem by MC Paul B, 2006
Spread eagle knee pull
Ovum oven open
Midwife caught him
Hanahiraki
Ubugoe takaku
Uba no te ni
translation by Orie Ono
Sources:
White Boy Shuffle and Tuff by Paul Beatty
Japanese Death Poems edited by Yoel Hoffmann
The Dhammapada translated by Juan Mascaró